A Final Stand?

In the past years, those of us who enjoy Ver.2 have seen the game wither and die as people move on to Blue Burst, PSU, and MMORPGs. I know that there is no way to restore Ver.2's former glory, but I believe we can go one of two ways:

1. Continue down the current path of leaving the game the way it is, and just surviving with the few people who wander in and decide to play the game because their PC sucks too much to play BB, or because they want a little nostalgia. On this path, it's only a matter of time before the game is totally dead.
   
2. Start modifying the game to try to improve it and fix some of its flaws. Purists will say that doing this kind of thing (such as the Resist Mod) is just plain cheating, but as I see it the game is now in our hands. If we are defining how the game works, then we cannot be cheating. I believe this is our only option if we want to stimulate any interest in the game- we must fix some of the problems while maintaining the integrity of what makes Ver.2 different from Ver.3.
   

As such, I want to do various things, including the following:

• Fix droprates, particularly in Ultimate mode, so that items are findable
  
• Make Ultimate mode, particularly in Forest and Cave, more difficult so that when your stats are maxed the game isn't boring
  
• Change the stats and requirements of certain weapons so that more characters can equip things, and so that some of the useless weapons are useful in Ultimate mode
  

If people are behind this, I can go into further detail on my various plans, but if nobody really cares because Ver.2 truly is dead, then I won't bother. Either way, I believe I will end up doing this, if nothing else, for myself because I'm not ready to give up on PSO and go play something else. I would certainly be happy if others shared and would enjoy my vision, but if they don't, then I'll just do it for me since I'm the only one who cares. Post your opinion, if you have one.

Maybe we should consider making v2 only events that people want might to play as well to try to attract them to ver2. Also it might help asking other people who don't play this version what it would take to make them play.

Caboose wrote:Maybe we should consider making v2 only events that people want might to play as well to try to attract them to ver2. Also it might help asking other people who don't play this version what it would take to make them play.

BBer's: Moar stuff n' ep fore

Us:

There is only so much we can do.

I don't think that "fixing" droprates or changing weapon stats etc. is going to attract many people, if anyone.

Call me pessimistic, but I don't think we can realistically do anything to attract new players to v2. Content-wise, it's a serious step back from the other versions. Graphically it's also inferior. Nobody who is new will want to play an older, harder version of a game that almost nobody plays. The only people who are interested are the ones who are die hards from the beginning, ones who are looking to fulfill a bout of nostalgia, or people like me who never had the chance to experience the first time around and are playing now that they can.

I don't want this to die any less than the next guy, and I'll keep playing for a long time to come. We need to be realistic though and look at things from an outside perspective.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all it would take would be fr drop rates to be made easier. The thing is, you get to a point when you change so many things that it's just not the same anymore, and you aren't playing it for the same reasons you used to.

I like version 2 the way it is to be honest. Attracting new players won't work. The vets need to be brought back. But they're mostly all moved onto other things.

Caboose wrote:Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe all it would take would be fr drop rates to be made easier. The thing is, you get to a point when you change so many things that it's just not the same anymore, and you aren't playing it for the same reasons you used to.

If the thing that makes Ver.2 Ver.2 to you is that 95% of the rares might as well not exist because they are statistically impossible to find or useless, then yes I suppose changing weapon stats would make the game no longer the same. To me, it's things like a more difficult Ultimate mode, HU/RA with all Techniques, good support range, infinite Material usage, and so forth that make the game what it is. I firmly believe that the drop system in Ver.2 is fatally broken, and to me the game would be far more enjoyable if the rares that Sega added to distinguish Ver.2 from Ver.1 could actually be obtained. I find it really hard to believe people think the statistical impossibility of Ver.2 drops is truly fair or enjoyable.

I am also firmly aware that nothing we do will make a significant number of extra people play this game than those that already do. This is not my main goal. My main goal is to make the game more enjoyable for the people who do play it, and if that happens to attract some extra players, then that's a nice bonus. Quite simply, I get tired of using a Red Handgun and Imperial Pick to kill everything, and when my ATP is maxed I get bored with the fact that I can kill Bartles with my eyes closed. There are steps that can be taken, in my opinion, to improve the gameplay of Ver.2 without changing its core gameplay values.

Also for those people who have only registered on SCHTServ, you might want to register here as well to give your opinions, as I'm getting people saying "YUS!" via PM but not here. It will be a major pain to PM a ton of people repeatedly.

Ah, I see what you mean Ives (I had read the post and then returned a few hours later to make my reply, my mistake).

You are right, it would be nice if we could actually get rares other than the Red Handgun, Red Sword, and Imperial Prick. I agree with you on that, but I also think we need to keep it hard enough to find that when you do it's not like BB where rares drop like monomates.

I'm not sure about changing the difficulty for forest and cave in ultimate. Level 80 characters already struggle like mad, and even at 111 my HUmar has enough trouble killing stuff in forest and caves without buffs and a Red Handgun. If anything, because I do see your point, maybe the difficulty should be more drastic between levels in Ultimate. It would be a compromise, but I think that's better than having people being forced to do VH until at least level 100.

As for the equips, I guess it depends on the weapons but as long as the advantages between characters in terms of usable weapons doesn't diminish, I don't have a problem with it.

Don't take me the wrong way, I was all for the TTF modifications and I do agree that the game could be even more enjoyable with some adjustments. The only thing I'm worried about is it becoming like one of those private WoW servers where it's the same game, but it's not, if that makes any sense.

Post the rest of your ideas Ives, I'd like to hear them and I'm sure the others would too.

Caboose wrote:Imperial Prick.

I logged in just yesterday for a little bit. (Had a time slot to play) I looked at the Cephei server, and people I knew were actually still online, playing. I couldn't believe it. 4 people. We need this mod. We need more customization. We need longer text bubbles. AND WE NEED THE PURPOSEFUL GLITCH, like being able to PK others, being able to summon monsters to fight along you in battle mode, being able to see a part of episode 2, maybe even if just the first level, and we need to find a way to make PSO more exciting. We need PSO 1&2 for Wii. We need PSO 1&2 for PC. We need PSO for every system we can think of. If PSO dies, where will online gaming be? Phantasy Star Universe?

I'm all for changing the way drops work. Activate Falz and quests, make certain drops easier, and maybe change around who drops what.

An add-on that would change Ult. difficulty would be good too. Would it be possible to make it like your resistance mod? That way, if someone wanted to added it after those levels became too easy, they could, but early Ult levels wouldn't be affected.

Changing weapon stats around, I'm not too sure about.

The real question is, will the Dreamcast be supported by Schthack or "other"? The support "connection" forums are all out-of-date. There seems to be no real "revised" plan to make it easy for Dreamcast users to get online currently. All past efforts are appreciated by myself as well as the Dreamcast community.

I'm sorry to state that I am one of those who donates $$$ on Schthack because I want to play on the Dreamcast. I haven't played or donated lately because I haven't been able to get the DNS server software and the PSOv2 PAL I recently bought to work with my BBA connection (due to the death of the HL). My goal is to keep playing and donate - if I ever get back in. I do not have PSO BB nor will I ever because I am gonna play Dreamcast until PSO is 100% offline.

Caboose wrote:You are right, it would be nice if we could actually get rares other than the Red Handgun, Red Sword, and Imperial Prick. I agree with you on that, but I also think we need to keep it hard enough to find that when you do it's not like BB where rares drop like monomates.

Darian Braver wrote:I'm all for changing the way drops work. Activate Falz and quests, make certain drops easier, and maybe change around who drops what.

I figured I would group these two replies since they are similar. First, I don't really see why people say rares drop like hotcakes on Blue Burst, seeing as I generally get shit when I play. Second, I wish it was as easy as that to balance the drops, but unfortunately Sega made the drop system ridiculously complicated so there is no way to just set a rate for rares to drop and have it work. It will require a lot of guesswork and finger crossing, unfortunately.

Secondly, the most significant problem we are working with is that it is probably impossible to make rares drop in quests. The Dreamcast and PC executables not only disable the actual rare drops such as Red Handgun, but they also disable normal drops that qualify as rares, such as Club of Laconium, Varista, and Devil/Battle. The only way to make rares drop in quests is to do significant exe modifications, and since we don't have the source or anyone who knows a shitload about assembly, this will most likely never happen. As such, improved droprates would only apply to freeplay.

Now your response to this might be something on the order of, "Wait, if rares only drop in freeplay, then why would anyone ever play quests? Quests would only be good for EXP, and the only reason I play quests now is because I know that even though rares don't drop in quests, I know they won't drop in freeplay, either, because the rates suck so much." Yes, this is true. To combat this problem, I have another idea to implement. Every quest would give out "Photon Points", and the number of points would be scaled by area and quest difficulty, as well as the difficulty level you play. Now, what would these points do, you ask? You probably know that Gamecube and Blue Burst have a shop quest, so I would make one for Ver.2. You could trade these points to buy services in the quest, such as, but not limited to:

• Changing weapon percentages
  
• Giving slots to armour
  
• Maxing DFP/EVP bonuses in armour
  
• Adding + to units
  
• Trading Materials of one type for Materials of another type
  

As such, you would have to play freeplay to find rares, but the odds of getting the percents you want or the slots you want will still suck. You will then have to play quests if you want to upgrade the equipment you find. It's also important to note that since rares won't drop in quests, certain enemies will have to have very easy droprates to accomodate their spawn frequency. Since enemies like Hildelt, Baranz, and Canune only spawn, at best, five times per run, they would need to have very easy rates. The low number of times you can kill them would compensate for the low rate and even out to a decent chance of getting a rare.

Caboose wrote:I'm not sure about changing the difficulty for forest and cave in ultimate. Level 80 characters already struggle like mad, and even at 111 my HUmar has enough trouble killing stuff in forest and caves without buffs and a Red Handgun. If anything, because I do see your point, maybe the difficulty should be more drastic between levels in Ultimate. It would be a compromise, but I think that's better than having people being forced to do VH until at least level 100.

Let's first consider the ideal versus the real. Ideally, I would like to add a fifth difficulty level, and make Ultimate mode easier because Forest and Cave are too hard for level 80 characters, and Mine and Ruins are impossible without a Force. Ult would be made easier and designed for level 80 - 119, and then the fifth difficulty would be for 120 - 200. Let's face it, there is no way to make a single difficulty balanced for characters that are 100 levels apart. Either you're going to be bored spitless at level 180, or you're going to be frustrated out of your mind at level 80 after constantly getting your ass handed to you.

Now, we must look at things realistically. This is impossible. PSO supports four difficulty modes, and only four. The only way to make a new difficulty is to replace one that already exists. This would, unfortunately, mean that low level characters would have an even harder time in Ultimate than they do now. Of course if you're playing online, you ought to be having help from teammates, and particularly Forces. This would make Forces far more useful than they are now, as having a Force around would be highly appreciated. I think though that I should explain more directly what I want to do. I do not want to make things ridiculously more difficult than they already are.

First, I would not be changing EVP on any enemy, so the amounts of ATA you would need to hit stuff would be unchanged. Second, my goal is to make things closer to the way Ruins is, since Ruins is mostly fine on difficulty. Ruins enemies would not get any extra DFP. I'll give you some comparisons. First, Bartles have 1,176 DFP right now. Vulmers have 1,479, Gillchichs have 2,174, and Arlans have 2,550. You can see clearly how quickly DFP rises. Once your stats are maxed, you can very easily cut through the low DFP in Forest, which makes Bartles very easy to kill. As such, I want to increase DFP so that in Forest, enemies have around 1,900. In Cave, enemies would have around 2,100. In Mine, enemies would have around 2,300. In Ruins, the DFP would stay the same since Arlans already have 2,500. In this way, Bartles would become significantly more resilient without being harder than Arlans or anything like that. Forest, Cave, and Mine enemies would also be receiving extra ATP and ATA, since they can't hit you very often and when they do, they do pitiful damage when you have maxed DFP and good armour. All enemies would receive 25% more HP than they have now, including Ruins, which is where Ruins enemies would receive their extra resilience. All enemies would also give + 30 EXP. LCK is sort of up for grabs, I don't know if it really needs changing. Would this make Ultimate significantly more difficult for low level players? Well, yes. Would it be impossible? No, not if you use teamwork. Also remember that this would coincide with increasing the power of some of the Ver.1 rares in both ATP and ATA. I will give players access to some weapons in Very Hard that they will be able to take into Ultimate mode and use more effectively than the crap weapons that they have access to now.

Darian Braver wrote:An add-on that would change Ult. difficulty would be good too. Would it be possible to make it like your resistance mod? That way, if someone wanted to added it after those levels became too easy, they could, but early Ult levels wouldn't be affected.

Yes, this would be a mod, and players would have the option to use it. The main problem with this, is that players who use the mod and players who don't would not be able to play with each other properly. Because enemies would have different HP values, there might be some desync and other unforseen problems like those that occur when you play between PC and GC. I really don't know what would happen exactly. It's possible the only negative effect would be that the person without the mod would be wondering why the person with the mod was getting his ass handed to him by a Bartle. For PC users, to switch between modes you would have to be doing file replacement. For Dreamcast users, you would have to switch discs. I realize that this is not ideal, but unfortunately the ideal scenario is impossible, so I'm trying to compensate as best I can. Level 80 people may be hard-pressed to survive in Ultimate, but once you get to higher levels you find that Forest and Cave will bore you spitless because your stats increase so hugely during your stay in Ultimate mode.

@ Bob Dobbs

I plan to do everything I can to both PC as well as Dreamcast, and these mods will be applied to EUv2 so users can still connect online. Once I find out how to use sort files with mkisofs I can release an EUv2 disc so Dreamcast users can start playing again... :/

Oh well, what I've been missing... anyways, this topic is sure interesting.

My oppinions for what should be done:

In game:
-Drop rate reajustment, but not like BB (as everyone says, and sorry Aleron, but you got bad luck when playing, BB really drops rares like monoshits)
-The side shop quest + points obtained while doing quests really sounds neat!
-Difficulty should be more balanced, or harder depending on droprate changes.

To call the outsiders:
-Make a good tutorial on how to access online mode on the Dreamcast.
-Have an independant SHIP for DC/ PC and not PC/DC/GC, or garantee the following ideia I next suggest.
-Tell people that they can (do they, really?!) still play PSO when sctserv ends and explain how.
(I know this may sound stupid, but I would feel more relieved to play more PSO, if I knew that when Crono decided to abandon the project, we had the chance to get our hands on the server software so we would still be able to play it online)
-Advertise everywhere, make banners, renew PSO Palace homepage, etc.

Now your response to this might be something on the order of, "Wait, if rares only drop in freeplay, then why would anyone ever play quests? Quests would only be good for EXP, and the only reason I play quests now is because I know that even though rares don't drop in quests, I know they won't drop in freeplay, either, because the rates suck so much." Yes, this is true. To combat this problem, I have another idea to implement. Every quest would give out "Photon Points", and the number of points would be scaled by area and quest difficulty, as well as the difficulty level you play. Now, what would these points do, you ask? You probably know that Gamecube and Blue Burst have a shop quest, so I would make one for Ver.2. You could trade these points to buy services in the quest, such as, but not limited to:

• Changing weapon percentages
  
• Giving slots to armour
  
• Maxing DFP/EVP bonuses in armour
  
• Adding + to units
  
• Trading Materials of one type for Materials of another type
  

As such, you would have to play freeplay to find rares, but the odds of getting the percents you want or the slots you want will still suck. You will then have to play quests if you want to upgrade the equipment you find. It's also important to note that since rares won't drop in quests, certain enemies will have to have very easy droprates to accomodate their spawn frequency. Since enemies like Hildelt, Baranz, and Canune only spawn, at best, five times per run, they would need to have very easy rates. The low number of times you can kill them would compensate for the low rate and even out to a decent chance of getting a rare.

I really like that idea. Being able to improve items, especially armor, would almost be enough of a change for me to be happy for quite some time.

Ditto to above reply.

I think the easy way to make harder/altered versions of ultimate forest et al would be to put them off to the side and keep them separated in a quest. For those that want to play the harder version of ult forest, just go to the hunters guild and request the quest.

One thing that I would absolutely love in order to continue playing this game is if the unreleased weapons were released. And I would definitely play online more often if I knew I had a chance to earn a red ring from Falz.